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Ashley McMullen

You're listening to The Nocturnists: Black Voices in Healthcare. I'm Ashley McMullen.

I cannot believe it is already September. The pandemic is still ongoing. And we've borne witness to new tragedies, while recognizing so many more that go unseen. And yet we're still here, as Americans, as healthcare workers, as a dynamic community of Black people, loving ourselves, loving each other, and envisioning a future filled with hope. Putting together this series over the last several weeks has been life-giving for me. The joy of building this family, the sense of home in each episode, and the strength in connections that come from stopping and listening to each other's stories.

Two weeks ago we wrapped up the storytelling portion of this series. Last week, I sat down with our extraordinary executive producer, Dr. Kimberly Manning. I hope you guys enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here's “Episode 10.”

Well, good morning! Dr. Kimberly Manning, here live with me. How’re you doing this morning?

Kimberly Manning

I'm good. I'm feeling great. You know, living my best life out here in the ATL.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah, I can't wrap my head around the fact that it's been three months since we started this project, and about three months since the murder of George Floyd. I'm wondering, just at this point, looking back, how did this project unfold for you? Or, what was your trajectory in getting on board, and what it's meant for you since then?

Kimberly Manning

Well, you know that we kind of started a friendship before this came along. I was so, so lucky. Back in, was it 2019?

Ashley McMullen

September, 2019, yeah.

Kimberly Manning

Where I had the chance to come and visit as a visiting professor at UCSF. And among the meetings that I got was this dynamic, magnetic Black woman who comes strolling in with a backpack on.

Ashley McMullen

Oh, yeah.

Kimberly Manning

And this explosion of natural hair, telling me about all the dope things she was up to and, you know, I just remember the day very well, and us going out for coffee and all that. And, so, Emily Silverman and I had met a few times before. And when she reached out to me, pretty much she had me at “Ashley,” pretty much. She was, like, "...and Ashley…" I was like, "Oh, I want to do it. I want to do it." So yeah, I was all in.

Ashley McMullen

I also love thinking about that time when we met. I was wearing a dress that day, it's probably the only day I've ever worn a dress to work. (KIMBERLY LAUGHS) So, I just wanted to point that out–that I was actually going somewhere afterwards, but, but, that was partly for you. Um, but, yeah, so, similarly, you know, having Emily as this, this mutual connection, as well as us having that history, it is kind of beautiful how this unfolded on the backside of so much pain.

Thinking about that first episode, I gotta say, I remember when we first put the cut together and I heard your opening story. And I just listened to it over and over and over again, because you articulated so well just the visceral response to, not just George Floyd, but how his story connects historically with so much that has been witnessed over generations, particularly for you having been present during the, the Rodney King murder. And, I don't know, can you maybe talk a little bit about what that process was like for you recording that piece?

Kimberly Manning

You know, um, yeah. So I think, I think the whole point of that was just recognizing that this is just not new. You know, because people are kind of talking about it now, and it's caused more people to rally than have in the past, I just thought it was a chance to say, “Hey, you know, yo, this is, this is not anything new. This has been going on for as long as I can remember. I remember being a freshman in college in 1989 and watching the Central Park Five go to prison. And so you could just tell the story over and over. For every milestone that I've had in my life, it aligns with some pivotal thing happening to a Black body. You know, when Rodney King was beaten, it was the first time something like that got caught on film, besides historic lynchings which were made celebratory back in the day. But, you know, it was just good to talk about it.

And it actually makes me think about some of the other stories in that first episode, where some of our storytellers–more than one–even some, some of the clips that were included and some of the amazing clips that we weren't able to fit in, talked about this idea of what do you do with that information when it comes to you? Do you look at it? For me, as you know, I look. One, because I want to individualize that person, I want to know what happened. And I actually want to be disturbed. But everybody doesn't feel that way. And what I loved about one of the stories in particular, where one of our storytellers asked her sister, she should look. And her sister said, “Don't.” I thought a lot about that, and about how important it is for us to sort of respect the way that each of us feels in this space. I'm curious to know, “How do you feel, Ash, about these videos? Do you look?”

Ashley McMullen

I have a hard time looking. It's just such a strong emotional reaction. And particularly, like, if I'm scrolling through something at work, I know I can't look then. It requires me to find the emotional bandwidth to do it. Because for me, like, it's not just, “Oh, here's another one.” You know, this was a human being, this was a father, a son. You know, I am actively having to just grapple with the anger, and keeping it at bay so it doesn't turn into hatred. And I think I have to be very mindful about how I consume these things, and also the rhetoric that happens afterwards, because it, it impedes my ability to maintain hope.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah. Umhmm. One of our storytellers had me thinking a lot about how our unique vantage points shape the way that we grieve in this time. You know, for me, a cishet Black woman who's married to a Black man, and who has two Black sons who are in this sort of space where they're no longer considered innocents anymore. So as a mom, and as a wife, I, I worry about them.

But I'm not a Black man. One of our storytellers, who's a Black man, and the raw pain in his voice, as he spoke of how he felt when he heard about George Floyd, and his exhaustion, and how tired he is. It gave me sort of a unique empathy, I think, because I think I've just been so nestled in my space of, you know, black mama bear on her hind legs. I guess I just appreciated the opportunity to really step inside of what it is like to be the targeted. You know what I mean? I'm targeted, adjacent. And, don't get me wrong, we do know that Black women are targeted. But just thinking about Black men and the target on them, and what it's like to walk in that space, I really appreciated the vulnerability that our colleague offered us in that moment.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah.

Kimberly Manning

And just to think that, you know, with all that, the brother got to go back to work, you know? And do all the stuff everybody else has to do, probably got a paper rejected just like me. (BOTH LAUGH)

Ashley McMullen

Yeah. You know, it's the beauty of storytelling that does allow that proximity to people's experiences, and really challenges us to think outside of the narratives that we've cultivated about ourselves in the world. And really just dig a lot deeper into this well of empathy that this moment really begs for.

I remember when we were planning our episodes and trying to figure out how to maybe shape out some themes and where to go next. And you brought up making sure that we shed light on the aspects of joy, particularly in this, this moment of pain and reckoning. Would you walk me back through why this was so important to have that episode?

Kimberly Manning

Yeah, I mean, I think in this time with so much pain, everybody is (?) when it comes to Black folks, you know. And it is really a very, very joyful thing to be Black. It is interesting, because I don't know too many Black people right now who don't want to be Black. I have to say my, my, probably my favorite part of that Black joy had to do with when those bars came in on "Lift Every Voice and Sing." It is just the most triumphant and beautiful and resilient and celebratory song. And it takes me back to being a little kid. And the fact that one of our, our contributors would record himself playing the piano, and then the story that accompanied it–It was just sublime. I loved it. And it was just joy personified.

Ashley McMullen

Yes. Absolutely. I know for me, I, when I had left Chicago and moved to Houston, we were in a predominantly white suburb. And it took me awhile to understand what Black joy was, even though I was little. And even though there wasn't a lot of overt racism, it was still very clear that my differences weren't to be celebrated, they were to be compensated for. And, you know, as I got older and became more comfortable with myself and my identity, it just baffles me how, how much there is to celebrate that doesn't get celebrated. I mean, particularly for, you know, those among us who were descendants from slaves, our whole legacy is about people who survive. And didn't just survive, they created a whole culture that touches every corner of this earth. It's, it's just, to me, it's just so dope to have, to have that in my, in my genes. I think about, you know, my mom and my grandmother, and all these amazing Black women who've just, you know, in spite of it all, just shined in every way. And I love that. I love being Black. Took me a minute, but I love this hair too, you know? Gotta, gotta carve out that time to, you know, do a good wash day, but it's really straightening the mess-ups.

Kimberly Manning

I don't know about you, doing your hair while we were having our planning sessions on our bi-weekly meeting. That's actually, probably the highlight of all of our, our, you know, under-the-hood working, was when you were doing your hair in the middle of us discussing episodes. See, this was, this was a real thing. And I'm, like, of course, for years and years, Black women have been doing their hair while they're doing something else very important.

Ashley McMullen

You gotta multi-task. It's, it's so real.

Kimberly Manning

It is a whole thing. Oh, you know what I love, too? I just thought about it. I thought about when our storyteller told about how, you know, he rolled up into the SNMA Conference and then opened the door. And it was, like, all these Black medical students groovin’, doin’ the Electric Slide to (IMITATES BEAT) you know, to the “Black Candy,” right? What bugged out about that, to me, is that, you know, when I went to medical school in Meharry, I went to the SNMA National Convention, all but three out of my four years. And even in 1994, ‘95, and ‘96, when I went to that convention, it was the exact same thing that our storyteller described. It was equally lit, it was probably playing Cameo, you know. And you know how Black folks when they do the Electric Slide, you know how you first do it the one time, the regular way?

Ashley McMullen

Yeah, and then you be throwing stuff in.

Kimberly Manning

You gotta put some flavor on there, do your own free kinda thing. So I can hear all that. And then I loved how our team, our super dope creative team, just brought that sound into it, so that as you were listening, you could just feel it. And it was so timeless. And I think that's what I love about that particular episode. Because the Black joy that was threaded through there, even though we covered so much of the diaspora, right, in that episode. I mean, we talking about, you know, people who, whose families immigrated here, and people who are descendants of slaves, and just so many different aspects of it, but there's always this sort of common main line going through, that everybody sees and hears and knows is like, “Yup, yup, that's it.” So for me, it was "Lift, Every Voice and Sing," and then, of course, the Electric Slide. But I mean, and I know most people listening to this, who, you know, do not identify as Black and who are, like, “I know, I do the Electric Slide.” But it's different. It's just like, the Electric Slide with hot sauce on it. (BOTH LAUGH)

Ashley McMullen

I love, I'm just, you know, I'm getting all the feels again from, from that episode. And we had another storyteller who described Black as transcendent. And when you find yourself in an all-Black space, it just, like, the atmosphere just changes. And she was talking about, you know, the Blackout nights that she would have with Black trainees.

Kimberly Manning

Yup. I'm super happy that that story was included about going to see Black Panther. Yeah, cuz I actually don't think I know anybody Black who didn't see Black Panther in theater more than once. Like, everybody I know saw it in theater more than once, just because, because, you wanted to just feel that energy. And, of course, I did love that this was your story.

But the story about your Blackest day in residency, and it was just another one of these moments where I could see it. I could say, “You know what? Yeah, I had that experience, too.” And, you know, it, this is salient, obviously, because right now many of us are feeling the pain and loss of Chadwick Boseman, who starred as T'Challah the King. And what he did for us in that moment, how we looked at that big screen and we saw all the things, like this beautiful thing, like this narrative that is, is almost like the narrative that could have been, if our story had not been told for us by people who were not really in the most selfless space. That's the way I'll put that. And how that, that the way that we were defined when we got here, how it is just carried and carried and carried and carried. But to see that rewritten on that screen, and then to hear your story about it–I'm so happy it was included, almost like a little nod to all that good work that Chadwick did. So.

Ashley McMullen

Yes. We also talked in some of our other episodes about, you know, what “home” means to us. You know, one of my favorite pieces was a young woman who talked about bringing her partner home. And that, that kind of conflict of, “This is my home, this is a part of me, but there's this other part of me that isn't a part of that, or doesn't get to be a part of that,” and, kind of, this feeling of incompleteness. And I resonated so much with that, because I feel like this is something I've been chasing my entire life, is being able to be my whole self.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah, it is this dichotomy, right? That the thing that you love, that has nurtured you, that has made you who you are, there's this internal struggle where you'd like to tease apart the parts that don't nicely fit into your life. You'd like everybody to play well together and for it to fit into a nice puzzle that you could frame and stick on the wall. But that really resonated with me a lot. Actually, as I listened to that story I thought about times when I was growing up. I remember I got bused to this magnet school in middle school, and that was my first time ever being around anybody that wasn't Black. My whole neighborhood was Black and Mexican. And this magnet school, I'm meeting, like, kids who are, like, white and Asian and Jewish, and who have means and all this stuff. And I had a slumber party. And I remember really being troubled about commingling my friends, you know? Because, you know, my neighborhood was pop lock and double dutch and breakdancing. And my school was, you know, none of that.

And, you know, I think that I had drunk the kool aid of thinking that the things that were Black weren't as good. And I recall what I did, which I'm not proud of, which is brought these friends from high school to my house and didn't invite any of my friends from my neighborhood to my party to keep us separated, because I didn't know how to do both. I didn't want my friends from my neighborhood to tease me for code switching. And I didn't want my friends from school to understand why I was being (air quotes) "ghetto." And now that's why I'm so excited about where we are now, you know? Because I ain't doing none of that anymore. (BOTH LAUGH) You gone get all this Black girl magic. You gone get Inglewood, you gone get Tuskegee, my hair weave, you're gone get Wakanda. Yeah, you're gone get all of that. It took me all this time to figure out that that's what people want anyway.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah! I remember I was describing you to a friend of mine and talking about how much everybody loves you. Which is awesome, because it's, like, she's also a thousand percent Black. (KIMBERLY LAUGHS) So, she is...

Kimberly Manning

That was a work, that was a work in progress, yo, that was a work in progress.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah, no, I feel you so much on that. It reminds me of one of our storytellers in the initial episode about George Floyd, who mentioned having to go to work after that, not really having anybody acknowledge or make space for what the storyteller was going through. And she mentioned this feeling that her worlds will not peacefully coexist. And I was just, like, “Oh, God, yes!” You know, it's so, so true of how we just gotta get indoctrinated into this system of beliefs that in order to be happy, in order to be successful, in order to be accepted, you gotta strip down the parts of yourself that are not white heteronormative, and try to be as close to that as possible. So….

Kimberly Manning

I think the other thing about the “home” episode that I loved so much, was that home for a lot of people was joy. Right? It was, like, joy in home. So, woo! Was I so hyped when you opened up that episode, and then you start talking about being from Houston. Did you? What did you say? What? Did you talk about chopped and screwed music?

Ashley McMullen

Yeah!

Kimberly Manning

Oh, my God, I was so here for that, I was here for all of that, because that is home. And that's a, it was, it was a joyful way to kind of kick off that, that episode. Because, even with the troubling parts of home, there's just so much beauty. I think another one of our storytellers talked about just, you know, just how home is just joy and safety and, and all the solace and good feelings that come from it. And I like that idea of us countering the narrative, you know, because what's shown often on TV is chaos in Black families. People know that Black families have been historically fractured, right, starting from the times of when we were enslaved, and much later, if you, you know, look at mass incarceration. But there are a lot of very happy Black families that look a lot of ways. And some have just mom, you know, some have just dad, some have big mama. Some have, you know, all kinds of folks, but I loved how in that episode, we were really able to, you know, share with, with so many listeners, “Hey, you know, home for us is really a lot like home for you. It's joy. It's happy. It's food that smells good. It's, you know, somebody saying some crazy when you bring your boo home.” You know what I mean? Like, all that, it's, like, not...It was beautiful, because some parts are unique to us, but it also showed our shared humanity. Because I'm so sure that there's somebody somewhere who listened to that, those episodes and felt like, “Dang, you know what, that sounds like my home.”

Ashley McMullen

Right? Absolutely. Speaking of, you know, blackness and authenticity, you know, and I try not to rank the episodes like, you know, they're all special in their own right. But that “Hair” episode? Girl!

Kimberly Manning

Ma’am. Ma'am. (BOTH LAUGH) You know, that was the first one that we felt we had to do. We're, like, we must have an episode talking about this hair.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah, I would say that was probably one of the, one of the tougher editing sessions I remember, cuz everybody was just like, oh, there were so many good stories, so many important stories. But, you know, we were able to cultivate something magical in that and, like, so many good pieces, you know, from our storytellers who were men, talking about being bald, about–

Kimberly Manning

Oh, come on. Can I please just pause for a moment on that? I loved that story. Partly because this Black man in my house, who is real serious about his bald head. And that, I think people don't understand that the bald head industry, they make a lot of money. Like that's a whole thing. Right? So, then his little patient said "Yo, you got the dome, son." (BOTH LAUGH) I could just hear it. It was so funny. And I just loved, I loved that. I loved that. Because, part of our hair experience is not having hair, too.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah. Right? It is such an important aspect of our identity. And such a fraught one. I can spend all day talking about my hair journey. It's so much a part of, of who you are and your self confidence and how you carry yourself. I love Lash Nolen. Whoo, all those bars. I was, like, man, let me, let me play this back a couple of times. I might need this when I'm getting ready in the morning.

Kimberly Manning

And you know what's funny? Like we, like, I'm sure our listeners are like, “Yo they trying to de-identify people,” but you cannot de-identify Lash. No, you can't de-identify Lash. Because she's just like, you know her as soon as she, like, you hear the first utterance of her voice. So, there's no way that we could do that anyway. So, this is where I'm like, we just gone say it.

Ashley McMullen

I just put her whole name out there, my bad.

Kimberly Manning

Oh, no, but she shares a lot on social media, I mean, expresses herself that way. And you know, what's so dope about that freestyle that she offered us, really, was about how all these different looks that we have, and how eventually, you know, professionalism has to be redefined, right? To get with where we are. Like, it's exhausting to try to learn how to be a doctor and how to learn the new guidelines on what to do for, you know, a venous thromboembolism, but at the same time, be somebody that you are not. And what we see in the mirror, our outward appearance, is a big part of who we are, so. And I just loved how she kind of unpacked all the hairstyles. You press out your puff puff. Gone, girl, with your puff puff! Cuz, you know, you got a puff puff right now, you got a little puff puff right now.

Ashley McMullen

Oh yeah, yeah I got a little high bun going on.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah, that was, that was a good one. And then, of course, I was absolutely brought to tears by this elegant, elegant story told by one of our storytellers, of honoring her patient through braiding her hair. You know, like, when you look good, you feel good. And I think a lot of Black women, and maybe some Black men, who heard this, have been in hospitals. Have had that experience where they've looked at somebody who looked like them, and saw their hair matted, and said, “Man, let me just comb your hair for you.” That was a real moment for me. The cadence also of, of the story, how measured her voice was as she told the story, just honored the patient and the experience, in such a special way. That was a real highlight for me.

Ashley McMullen

You know, I gotta admit, that's one of my worst fears actually, is being laid up somewhere and having my hair looking crazy.

Kimberly Manning

I'll come do your hair for you.

Ashley McMullen

One-hundred-percent! If my hair's not looking right, you know, y'all can let me go, it's okay. No, but, on the real, I think that part of what I'm learning in this time–because, I mean, this is a time of reckoning for everybody–is to be mindful of experiences that are different from ours, especially if you hold some elements of power and privilege in this society. And as physicians, that's us, no matter what other aspects of intersectional identities you may embody. As a physician you have equal, if not more, responsibility to try to get proximate to the experiences of those who you are charged with caring for. And I think about, you know, taking care of people who are sick, who are disabled, who are vulnerable, having never actually, you know, by the grace of God, in my thirty-two years so far, really understood or experienced what that is like.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah.

Ashley McMullen

So of course, we would be remiss to go through this series without acknowledging the ongoing pandemic, happening concurrently with issues of anti-Black racism and racism in general. But COVID-19 felt like an important moment to acknowledge and pay homage to in the middle of the series, and recognizing that we're all healthcare workers who are in this fight. So I thought that that was just a really incredible thing to honor and see, through our stories.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah, I loved how one of our storytellers talked about what it means to be a nurse in this time. You know, again, just like, you know, as we think about hierarchy in the world. You know, the references I've made, even to race, the same can really be said in hospitals sometimes, right? Where, where we don't take a moment to fully appreciate the contributions of everybody. And so, I was really excited to hear our nursing colleague say, "Listen, slow down. Let me show you what's different right now, about being a nurse in the time of COVID. You know, you get to put on your PPE, come in there, you know, take a little history and, you know, move your stethoscope around a chest and then scoot on out. But I'm the person that's in and out of that room for a whole shift. And don't be an intensive care unit nurse, like, you know, this individual was, where you're one to one with somebody for an entire shift.

And that, that really, I've always appreciated our nursing staff, all our whole team, our MDs and dieticians and everybody, But I think that COVID, and some of the stories that we heard, amplified and was like an aha moment for me about the unique roles of every single person who is frontline in this pandemic. And then, so, to think that on top of that, you're a nurse, and then on top of that you are now getting mandated to do stuff that isn't what you signed up to do right now. It happened to some doctors but not with the frequency that has happened to our nursing staff. So, I appreciated that story.

Ashley McMullen

I feel like we will be reflecting and unpacking this pandemic for a long time. It's definitely reshaped the way I view myself within this healthcare system, and the role that I play. So moving on to our episode on “Becoming.” And I love the title because it means so many different things, and all of us have these phenomenal stories and these journeys. And I, for one, just felt very, very, very connected and very blessed with this episode because my mom got to be on it.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah.

Ashley McMullen

And knowing that her story, so much, is intertwined with my own. And, you know, it's just a little, little snippet of her journey into becoming a nurse. But that was really what put me on the path to becoming a doctor as well.

Kimberly Manning

Wow, that was, I thought that was another tough editing one, too. Because, there were just so many really special stories that we heard. Obviously, we can't think of the word ”becoming” now without thinking of everybody's BFF, Michelle Obama. But there's also this quote that I absolutely love from this author Carol Dweck, that says, "Becoming is better than being." But I think that our stories in that episode really underscore that, right? Nobody ever really arrives, and the people who think they have, they're annoying. (BOTH LAUGH) Right. I mean isn't that true?

Ashley McMullen

Just to say it correctly, I mean, yes, it's true, when you think about it.

Kimberly Manning

It's true. Like, if you, if you think you arrived, you're annoying. And the people that are always, like, you know, on their hustle, and trying to get there, you know, no matter what that is, you know, whether it's figuring out how to do a new thing, take on a new task, or anything like that, or it's trying to become a doctor, it's so, it's such a moving target. And it's always more exciting to talk about the process than it is to talk about when you get there.

Ashley McMullen

No, that's, that's so true. Like, the moment we think we've arrived, you know, that's when things I feel, like, can get dicey. Especially as people in health care, you know, there's always something needing to be learned–not just about the body, but about people. You know, we're in the business of taking care of people, and people evolve. And we also have to evolve. Otherwise, we can't, we can't change our society into a place that'll be equitable for everybody.

Kimberly Manning

For sure.

Ashley McMullen

But of course, part of that process of becoming, especially in these professional identities that we embody, means that we might find ourselves standing out from time to time. Being the one chocolate chip in the cookie, as I had one attending describe to me, during her process of being a Black woman in medicine.

Kimberly Manning

Or a speck of pepper in the country gravy.

Ashley McMullen

Oh, yeah, that's a good one. But this episode was definitely another top one, for me. That story about starting off as a dancer in ballet. And, you know, to put yourself out there, to try out for a company and, you know, you're already nervous and real anxious, you know, thinking about the, the dance itself. And then to have a comment, like, “You’re too distracting.”

Kimberly Manning

You know, you know what hurt me so badly about that story is that our storyteller was young. I believe she was probably, like, twelve, or a ‘tween, or something like that.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah.

Kimberly Manning

And as she brings us into the story, right, it had not occurred to her yet, that–it occurred to her that it was a challenging thing to do it, right? To take on this, this task. And her perception of her performance is that she had done her best, and that she was at least in the running. Because she, you know, a few cuts have been made and she made it, you know, along. But that person robbed her of her innocence. There's a moment that, you know, Ashley, I'm a mom, right? And I can put my finger on the moment when that happened to both of my sons, when they were robbed of their innocence. Where this idea of who they are and their position in the world….And there's this moment that comes along that says, “You're not the ideal. You're not the ideal at all.”

You know, one of my kids, when he was little and early in elementary school, I was talking to a mom outside of school one day and the mom was like, "Oh, yeah, we should get the kids together for, for a playdate." I was like, "Yeah, let's do it." And I get my son in the car. And I'm like, "Hey, I'm gonna set up a playdate for you with this kid. And my son looked at me and said, "I don't think I want to go over there for a playdate. We could play at school, but I don't want to go over there for a playdate, because he said that Black people are bad, and they don't work hard." And the thing is, my son was, like, in the maybe first or second grade at the time. And the only way that–he sort of inherently knew, around that point, that it wouldn't be safe for him to be at that house where those ideas were percolating. So, “As long as I'm on neutral territory, like we could play at school, but I'm not going in there.”

Ashley McMullen

Yeah.

Kimberly Manning

And, you know, it was a hard thing, but that happens, you know, in Black families all the time. There's this point where your kid is just, like, doing their thing. And while she was pretty fortunate to have made it that long, because eleven is kind of old, or twelve. But I do think that that is a unique lived experience for Black people in this country–to have this moment where it is brought to you in relief like, “Yo, you are not what we have in mind. You are, you are a deviation from the norm. You are other.”

Ashley McMullen

Yeah. And the fact that, you know, on rounds having this happen again. And again, as a medical student, her response being, you know,”Thank God I had parents who instilled in me that I am enough!” That this isn't, that this isn't it, you know–what, what people, people's perceptions and intimations of you are. I could relate to that. And it was, it was tough, but such an important and beautiful story.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah, it was, it was a lot in that, you know, that episode that was beautiful, because standing out is not always a negative thing, right? You stand out in ways that are, that are really special.

Ashley McMullen
Yes.

Kimberly Manning

Oh, you know what, that also makes me think–sorry, I got hyped there. I thought about our friend who, who spoke to us from North Dakota. Lord have mercy! Like, okay, I'm not sure if she is actually still there. But she was from North Dakota and talked about the lived experience of growing up as a Black woman in North Dakota. And when I say I was today-years-old, or that day, that-day-years-old, when I knew that somebody Black was in North Dakota. And it, it was was dope too, because like, not only was she from North Dakota, like, she was kicking all that, like, info about North Dakota, but with a little bit of, like, Black-woman flavor on it. It was….

Ashley McMullen

Right? Black people can be Black anywhere. (KIMBERLY LAUGHS)

Kimberly Manning

Even if they're not raised by Black people! It's like, “My whole family is basically not Black.” But, like, she was giving all the Black girl magic all through the recording of herself.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah. Love it. What a beautiful perspective, and also the complexity of what family and home is. And so I loved hearing that perspective. Loved it. And so talking a little bit about, you know, our second to last episode on, on “Touch,” what it, what it means to have the laying on of hands that's so intimately entwined with our profession.

Kimberly Manning

Okay, look, can I start?

Ashley McMullen

Yes.

Kimberly Manning

While you gather your thoughts? Okay. You know what? There was, um, one of our storytellers told this story about examining a patient, and the patient was like, “Yo, you're the first person,” I mean, the patient didn't say it like that, but I'm sure it was something close. Yeah. “This is my first time that somebody, a doctor, has touched me.” And, you know, I remember just being like, man, that is so sad. Because obviously like, what does touch mean, like, to the patient? Does it mean, like, where you took me out of my clothes and listened to me with your scope on my skin? Or you palpated my body with your bare hands? What does that mean? But regardless of what the patient's experience had been up until then, that any patient could be fully grown and have been in an environment for awhile and perceives that they have not been touched. That, that is sad.

Ashley McMullen

I mean, particularly when we think about people that we're comfortable with, with our friends, our family, like, there's, you know, there's an embrace, there's a kiss, there's a hug, there's a handshake. There's some very human element that comes with touch. And especially in medicine, that has become more and more dehumanizing. And the way that we approach our patients and the way that we do our day-to-day work, the push for efficiency and automation and electronic medical records, it just builds more and more distance.

And particularly now, again, in the backdrop of COVID-19, literally not really being able to touch people. It just exacerbates that truth so much more. I think probably the most moving story of that, for me, was the storyteller who's talking about their grandmother. And I am very close to my grandma, and so, you know, I'm not not a huge crier. I will, but like, you know, I was, I was moved to tears immediately on hearing this story. I was like, that was me. And so I thought that that was just so beautiful, the way she describes that relationship. And also, like, how she noticed after her grandmother had gotten sick, that the touch was different.

Kimberly Manning

The story that you just referenced about a beloved grandmother, and just feeling those hugs and what they mean. I mean, it just lets you realize there's a whole spectrum of touch that we're missing right now, right? It's from the deep hugs that you get from a grandmama to just those, you know, those nurses and patient transporters and folk that you see every day that just show you love, and that in ways that involve touch.

You also said you're not a big crier. And did you know that I cry every day? Every single day I cry. There's not a day, probably, in the last fifty years, cuz I'm gonna be fifty in like a week, that I haven't cried. I cry every day. I haven't cried yet today. Oh, no. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I did cry today already. I'm sorry. So, I've already got one in today. But I can, I can get in a few more, if you want.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah. No, the day is young.

Kimberly Manning

One of our storytellers was a rotating student in emergency medicine. And they were doing sort of the FAST study, right, where you learn how to do ultrasounds in trauma. And then the medical students were serving as the models for learning how to do these ultrasounds. And this particular medical student, who's a Black man, was lying on this table as emergency medicine residents ran an ultrasound probe over his abdomen. And the teacher pointed out that, oh my gosh, “This is the, this is the exact body that you're going to be working on. This is a perfect specimen.” Which, in a way, that obviously the teacher caught themselves while talking, and recognized that really what they were saying is, “This is the target,” right? This is, this is the target. So, like, while we aren't ideal for ballet, how much does it suck, that you're ideal for teaching somebody how to look for free blood in an abdomen after a gunshot? That's bugged out, man.

Ashley McMullen

And it is just so, it's so natural, you know, he didn't even realize he was saying what he was saying until he's about to say it. And then you just kind of brush it off and move on, similar to the attending who, you know, told, told the medical students for the ballet story that, you know, “You're just, you're just a distraction, you're just gonna, you're just gonna stay outside the room next time.” It's become so commonplace to see Black bodies in that way–as distractions, as commodities, as expendable.

Kimberly Manning

And I saw that as like this quiet, painful narrative that sometimes is experienced by Black people–that happens, like, right out in the open, but people don't realize that it's happening. You know what I mean? Like, where, like, if you, if you have lived it, you see it, right? But if you haven't lived it, it could just fly under your radar. Actually I wanted to backtrack to something that made me think about that very thing, which was when we had the “COVID” episode, actually, there was a storyteller who talked about this experience of having an ex-boyfriend call and say you know, that the ex's parent was, was sick with COVID in the hospital. And obviously there was, like, it was a complex story, right? Because it really weaved in all the, you know, the pain of a breakup and all of that. But, but to me, what it amplified is this, this other quiet narrative that's happening as a lived experience for Black people, which is that COVID-19, like, you see the charts that say, oh, it disproportionately affects people of color. But we have real stories to connect to that data. Somebody on the other end of a phone call, calling us to say, “My mama is on the way to the ICU,” or, “My daddy is prone in an ICU right now,” or, “What do you think about, you know, about remdesivir?” or “What, what you think about all of these medications and all these trials, because.…” And I could go through my cell phone and run out of fingers to count on, at how many direct, you know, asks I've gotten about people who are acutely affected by this. And so that story really resonated a lot with me, too, because I think that though, you know, I haven't had an ex call me up to say such a thing, what I have had is long-lost friends who think of me as the doctor in the family, and who haven't talked to me in a long time, who are like, “Yo, my, my people are on death's door with this thing.” And I just think it's less hypothetical for a lot of us.

Ashley McMullen

I know that sentiment of being the gateway between, you know, Black communities, Black families, and, and medicine. For so long, just the distrust, the misunderstanding, the miscommunication, the lack of communication, and having to, you know, play that role as mediator, even for an ex-partner, when you're still grieving that loss, to step into that role–I can, I can only imagine the difficulty there.

The way we chose to close out against this backdrop was talking about new life, and birth, and what that means, especially for our community. You know, I was thinking more, or thinking a lot, kind of existentially, about how, throughout years of oppression, that Black people continue to live and continue to thrive, and how birth is kind of, like, a very poignant manifestation of that. And the mix of the realities of Black women giving birth today and what that means, especially giving birth to sons, and also daughters, in a society such as this.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah.

Ashley McMullen

It's, it was a lot, but also very beautiful, and hopeful.

Kimberly Manning

I was in love with so much of that episode. You know what, I think there are pieces that really, like, the kinds of things that make you snap your fingers and go, “Yes, yes, I feel that. Yes!” One piece was one of our storytellers talking about finding out that she was having a son. And the storyteller, one of the complexities of being who she is, is that she described herself as somebody who self-described as mixed, and then disclosed that the father of her child is her husband who, who is white, and wondered what this child would be like. One, would this child be safe? But then this sort of tug of war, right, of wanting the kid to look and seem Black at the same time. And I'm like, man, that is, that is such a true thing for us, right? Where you, you have this piece of you that you, like, “I want my kids to be able to seamlessly integrate into this world that they have to be in.” But then, “I also want them to have their hair knotty, and I want them to walk into spaces and just own who they are. And I want them to just be, like, knowing who they are. But then I want them to be able to, kind of, go somewhere else and it not be too distracting.” You know what I mean? Kind of like back to what our other storyteller said.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah.

Kimberly Manning

And that's a, that's a tricky thing, right? Because you want that, really. You want both. And the two sometimes don't play well together. And I just thought that was an interesting thing, because I'm sure that there are people who think about how difficult it is to be a Black man and say why in the devil would you be wishing and hoping that your Black son comes out looking like a brother? You know, and not ambiguous, you know?

Ashley McMullen

Yes.

Kimberly Manning

But I get that. I could, I could see how she wanted that, like, I want him–and this is probably me putting words in her mouth, you know? But, a piece of me was, like, maybe she wants him to look so Black that he has no alternative but to embrace blackness, right? Versus potentially, cuz she said, would he pass? You know, he could be somebody who phenotypically does not look Black at all, and has the option to to embrace that piece.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah. And that option is not always easy. Yeah. No, I loved, I love that piece and the complexity of, of grappling with having a son. And I believe she found out she was pregnant on the day that George Floyd was murdered, which, you know, really just, kind of, shapes that whole experience. And, yeah, that, that level of anxiety, I can only imagine, you know? There's just, it just seems like there's something special, both frightening and beautiful, about being a Black mother.

Kimberly Manning

But you know what's crazy? I can say this as a Black mother. (BOTH LAUGH) That and, but I actually, this is, what I'm saying is something that you don't have to be a Black mother to relate to. There's like a fellowship of suffering that Black people have, that gets infused into our identity in this way that is a hard thing to imagine, like, letting go of ever, right? Like, when I think about a world where there is no racism, then with that goes the fellowship of suffering, right? Which is just an interesting concept, if you will. But there's a piece, sort of, built into us, right? When we think about the atrocities that our ancestors have experienced, it just gets, like, built into us to struggle, and there is, like, a muscle in us that is ready to do it. And almost a piece of me, It's crazy, like a piece of me likes when I get to use the muscle, you know? Because it's in me, it's like it connects me to my ancestors. I'm, like, “Yeah, dammit, God dammit, we gonna fight!” You know what I mean? “We here!” You know, “You got me confused if you think I'm about to back down off of this.”

So, you know, it's weird, like, you, you know, when my older son was born, and he started growing older, and he was so brown. He's so much browner than me. And I was, like, “Yeah, I got a chocolate baby.” You know? (BOTH LAUGH) “But his world is gonna be harder.” But yet, yeah, I'm ready. I'm, like, “I want to fight.” Yeah, that's crazy. It's, it's a, it's complex, man. It's complex, being Black.

Ashley McMullen

Right? But I feel, you know, especially, you know, for me, me personally, I think, you know, from a spiritual standpoint, it is, to me, my belief is that brokenness is something that is more spiritually connected to God. Or at least the biblical narrative of pain and suffering, at least in some ways, being a conduit to transformation, and being more than what this world would have you be otherwise. So I feel that so much. And knowing that, you know, throughout the suffering, particularly with my own identities coming into my own as a Black woman, especially as a Black, queer woman, the support of, you know, my family, my colleagues, but especially my best friend, who is basically my sister–went through residency with me, kind of saw me becoming into the woman that I am now–I couldn't have done that without her. And it made me think a lot about your story. And just, kind of, that sisterhood that many of us are blessed to embrace. And you know, what that was like for you to go through that moment, and have her roll up right outside of Grady.

Kimberly Manning

That's crazy, right? I mean, yeah, it was a beautiful conflict of interest. That's what we always call it. And, you know, if you, if you even intertwine it, that story, with another one of our stories….One of our storytellers talked about the person who sent an email saying, like, “I see you doing all this work in disparities, and it makes me think of Esther, and the scripture from the Book of Esther that says, you know, perhaps you were born for a time such as this.”

It makes me think about, like, this woman, right, who….Our paths crossed at MeHarry Medical College in 1992 and then we later crossed in Atlanta, Georgia, where she would, you know, we reconnect and she would become my OB. And, you know, you wonder if, like, this little point in time in 1992, when we met in the parking lot on the first day of medical school, maybe it was all for this, this time, right? And, you know, as I think about all of this, you know, this whole project, and us being here, doing this, talking about this, like, this almost fifty-year-old Black mama, and you this smart, brilliant, queer, unapologetic Black woman that I admire. And us getting to, like, do this together, then I backtrack to us in that meeting at UCSF in 2019. And then think to now, and think like, wow, you know, it's kind of like that same Book-of-Esther moment. Like, perhaps, you know, we are here for a time such as this. We are doctors who have lived this life, and who are experiencing, uniquely, two pandemics. One, the old pandemic that nobody was paying attention to but we were feeling–racism. And then this pandemic that's got my kids on virtual school and making my life miserable. (BOTH LAUGH) Among other things! Miserable, right?

But it is, like, it is interesting, right, to think about it in terms of, like, this, like–since you mentioned, kind of, spirituality–like this moment in time. It is nice to know that we are chronicling what it is like, and the meaning of being Black and in healthcare at a time such as this, because, this is, people do say, “unprecedented.” Now, the racism piece, that's “precedented.” But the racism commingling with this here COVID pandemic, that is “unprecedented.”

Ashley McMullen

And, I guess, for me, it speaks to the importance of putting our stories out there for our colleagues who both have been aware and, and aligned, alongside those who are really coming into this consciousness for the first time. That, yes, you have to do the work of, you know, reading the books, looking at list A through Z of how to, how to not be racist. But it is worth noting that having that knowledge that is void of actual experience, it's hard to fully know what you don't know, or come into this work, without at least some proximity to what it feels like to be on the receiving end of these types of atrocities. And not just the brutality that we see on screen that gets hyped up in the media, but it's the day-to-day, lived experience of being Black, being a person of color, being some other that, you know, doesn't, doesn't fit with what's considered valuable or normal in our society.

Kimberly Manning

For us to really make a dent in all this, we have to get proximate. And that's what's dope about our stories. We have people in the privacy of their homes, their cars, their walks in the park, their, you know, playground moments, their camping trips, allow a whole world of people to get proximate. To get into our lives and say, you know, this is what it's like right now, you know, to be Black. Not just, this is what it's like to be Black. This is what it's like to be Black right now, in the time of two pandemics. This is what it's like. Come on in and take a look. I'm not gonna code switch, I'm not gonna water it down. I'm not gonna give you something different. This is what it's like. And, and I love the way that you put that, Ashley, about how, you know, if you read a stack of books but you are not proximate, that there's nothing to humanize the thing that you're doing, then you ain't gone get there. You ain't. You're not going to get there.

But if you see somebody pull out a gun after three minutes, and shoot a man in his back seven times while his kids are in the car, If you're proximate to me, you will see my sons. You will see my husband. If you heard our storytellers, you will see what the world loses in terms of potential, when all of these things happen. And that's, I think the thing that I love so much about a story because, you know, a story just stays with you, even if you don't want it to stay with you.

We need something to live in your heart, why you do the work. It's not enough for me to show you a video of somebody doing something bad, and for you to have this, sort of, fleeting empathy and this “feelings advocacy,” right, as Ibram Kendi calls it. I'm ready for you to have it live in your heart so that you can't unsee and you can't uncare. And that's a problem, because people bent on caring. People care, but then they can uncare and keep it pushing. And I think stories, stories haunt you.

Ashley McMullen

Mmhm. I have to say when I first agreed to this, after talking with Emily, I had no real depth of understanding of the, the whole production crew behind the, The Nocturnists. And not only that, you know, between our amazing podcast producer, Jon, the audio engineer, our phenomenal medical students who took time out of their entire summers to help us go through so many stories and, you know, make the difficult decisions around who to cut. But we also commissioned an amazing Black illustrator, Ashley Floréal, who put together these, these tiles and the artwork that just brings to life this whole series. And I can't wait to hang all that art in my office. And then–

Kimberly Manning

Those beats! Janaé E! Because, you know, we needed some soul to open things up.

Ashley McMullen

Right!

Kimberly Manning

This process of all of us working together, it's been, it's been a real journey and a pleasure for me.

Ashley McMullen

Yeah. And not the very least of which, the over two-hundred Black voices in Healthcare, who signed on to this project, who trusted us to share these very real, authentic, vulnerable stories. And it pains me that we weren't able to scratch the surface of all the amazing stories that were submitted. But I just cannot say enough how grateful and proud I am to be a part of this community of folks who share pieces of themselves in order to bring this gift to the world.

Kimberly Manning

Yeah. Continue to tell your stories, man. Continue. The world needs it.

Ashley McMullen

This has been The Nocturnists: Black Voices in Healthcare. Thank you to our visionary sponsors, the California Medical Association and the California Health Care foundation for making this project possible.

I want to thank our core team, executive producer Kimberly Manning, The Nocturnists founder Emily Silverman, podcast producer Adelaide Papazoglou, sound engineer Jon Oliver, and medical students, Lauren Wooten and Rafaela Posner.

Thanks also to executive producer Ali Block, program manager Rebecca Groves and communication specialist Cora Becker. Our illustrations are by Ashley Floréal, our theme song is by Janaé E. If you want to continue supporting The Nocturnists work in storytelling, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts, or make a gift on our website or Patreon page. If you'd like to add your voice to one of The Nocturnists future projects, visit our website at thenocturnists.com.

Never forget: Black lives matter, Black health matters, and Black stories matter.